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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 8:15:36 GMT -6
There's someone on Facebook who posts in a role as Almalexia. they posted this:
Azura's political intervention was masterful, if ill-principled.
In the political structure, there is one thing that ties most of Morrowind together. The Tribunal. Redoran, Dres, and Indoril all hold to the Faith, united. Telvanni doesn't care to oppose. This leaves two groups worth mentioning, the Hlaalu and the Ashlanders.
The Hlaalu are essentially collaborators with the Empire. They go further than a brokered peace granting autonomy, and actively wish to replace their own culture and customs with the Empire's.
The Ashlanders are nomads, in a tribal structure, without real influence or political power.
The last actor is the Empire, seeking to gain more influence and more control in light of turmoil at home in Cyrodil.
What does Azura do? Using the facilitation of the Empire, she elevates the Ashlander stance by way of the Nerevarine, and kills or cripples the one unifying power in Morrowind. With this done, power falls to the Hlaalu, the coalition collapses. Morrowind is effectively lost.
Political manipulation at its best. And foulest.
Alma, before you go dissing Azura, keep in mind that you and the other two clowns were specifically told to not mess with the Heart. Yes, Voryn Dagoth fiddled with it too, but we're not discussing him. He doesn't bash Azura. So.... it might just be your own damn fault.
Just sayin'.
PS: Also? You didn't kick Dagon's butt at Mournhold. (I love Mournhold, so I'm glad he didn't finish the job). He was being invaded back home by Mephala's forces and you don't hang out on Nirn playing around when you're having an invasion at home. So he left. /headcanon
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Post by Daedric Cat on Mar 29, 2015 8:28:38 GMT -6
People tend to forget that Morrowind/Resdayn =/= the Tribunal.
It's quite popular to bash Azura. Even that Altmer in the Skyrim Azura's Star quest does it. Nirn knows there's plenty on Tesblr who call her a bitch and bash Azura. (Now that I think about it, I wonder if that guy was written as satire of the entire I hate Azura legion.)
What they are missing is basically what you said; What's happened to the Dunmer is from the actions of others, not the doings of Azura. Vivec and his two pals share the most blame there. She may be a Daedra Prince, but she has her limitations and must work from what she can from prophecy and lines of fate and only react to what mortals have done.
She's not going to babysit you.
A lot of the in-game literature claims that she did this and did that, but that's from a religious and even superstitious bias.
Lordinators don't understand how to read the books in the game, basically.
There's some truth to a lot of stuff, but there's a lot of nuance.
And the oversimplification of the Houses- I'm not so sure that House Hlaalu is purely Imperial. They may profit from being in alignment with the Empire, and the Duke walks and talks the Imperial line, but others in the House may not be so blindly Imperial. Not to mention Orvas Dren and the Camonna Tong. You don't get any more anti-Imperial than that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 8:36:17 GMT -6
Exactly. I think part of the issue wih Loredinators is they want to know how everything is exactly so, leave no room for nuance or subtlety, and they're just so...so dogmatic and orthodox about the whole thing. They're TES Lore Fundies, basically. Just like the Ordinators that I named that particular group after, they have a strict and humorless devotion to This Is How Things Are. Once, I tried to say that the stories about the moon and stars were just that--stories, myths, like we have here in ancient legends. That even there it was just like stars and moons in the real world, but because most, if not all, people on Nirn lack enough science to believe otherwise, there's this whole thing about the followers of Magnus (I think, not enough coffee yet) tearing holes in the sky as they passed. It didn't end well. Gods. I bet they're reincarnations of the people who wanted to kill Galileo ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by Daedric Cat on Mar 29, 2015 8:50:19 GMT -6
I notice a distinct lack of joy in their approach, a distinct lack of tolerance of other observations, as if TES Lore is an engraved marble slab and Must Be Maintained As Such.
LOL, I know.
There is a metaphorical truth in the actions of gods. The moons and Mundus can be still of the flesh of Lorkhan and still be spheroids of rock, gas, liquids formed from the forces of gravity and stellar activity, the same with other planets. There's layers to this and its hard to explain if someone doesn't understand the kind of metaphysics that MK has apparently studied and incorporated into his story.
It's like they want to keep it classical mythology only, the sky is a big dome and the stars are holes to aetherius. And only that. They don't get that there can be in interpretation that stars and the sun can be still the scientific stellar bodies as we know them, and still have a mysterious source in Aetherius.
Lack of flexibility, I'd say.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 9:25:16 GMT -6
Yes. I'm not sure why that is, especially with TES lore. You get some Loredinators where World of Warcraft is concerned, especially on RP servers, but even then that's mostly eye-rolling where the latest 'Mary Sue Part Bronze Dragon/Part Vampire/Part Goddess/Part Faerie Queen/Part Cyborg who is still perfectly beautiful and unmarred' characters are concerned. Heh. If I were a trolling kind of gal, just for funzies I'd introduce them to Nyxalinth. "But Daedra can't--how can she exist?" *head explodes like Tom Servo's dome or the guy from Scanners* I also don't buy most of the stuff about the Daedra Princes. I see it as bad press from devout followers of The Nine. In my headcanon, the Daedra exist to keep the balance of existence in order. There's a dremora you talk to in Battlespire who alludes to the Balance, but that it isn't meant for mortals to know or understand. Hell my ideas on Molag Bal and vampires would make the loredinators form a lynch mob ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by Lady MorningStar on Mar 29, 2015 9:42:23 GMT -6
Yes, I've noticed that when I've make my rounds to Elder Scrolls themed sites. Bashing her is the "thing to do". There are times when I seriously wonder if many of these people actually know why they're bashing her. From their posts it seems like they're just jumping on the Azura-bashing bandwagon.
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Post by Daedric Cat on Mar 29, 2015 10:06:55 GMT -6
It's like they expect Azura to babysit the Dunmer or something. Which is completely against the nature of the Daedra or the Dunmer.
I've noticed the nature of the Daedra in Oblivion, where you can collect enchanted Daedric weapons that are named according to sin. That and the other bits and scraps of lore we find, to me the Daedra only mirror the darker or more earthier nature of mortals. The serve in that aspect. It's like what Prince Jareth in Labyrinth tells the girl, you wanted someone for you to cower before and to blame, that's what I am. It's my nature.
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Post by Lady MorningStar on Mar 29, 2015 10:14:27 GMT -6
I've gotten the impression that many of them feel that Azura should be "all good" since she is considered one of the "good" Deadra. They want her to be a gentle, loving, patient, kind, nurturing goddess. All white with no shades of gray. And as you said, that is not the nature of the Daedra.
Personally I think that gray characters are much more interesting than those who are "all good" or "all evil".
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Post by Daedric Cat on Mar 29, 2015 10:23:53 GMT -6
Exactly. They expect her to be a Mother Mara and get upset that she isn't.
It's so funny that they bash on her like that but hold Vivec and his gang as beyond fault, when the story obviously has the same moral lesson as Frank Herbert's Dune, the weaknesses of mortals who become godlike and attract worshippers, and the nature of those worshippers, and psychology of power- Vivec is addicted to it as was Almalexia and Sotha Sil. They actually held themselves above judgment as Frank Herbert's characters did. Barenziah even warns you about that when dealing with Almalexia.
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Post by Lady MorningStar on Mar 29, 2015 10:38:34 GMT -6
Every now and then I see someone on Bethesa's Morrowind forum saying that they more or less have a problem with the gray aspects of the story. Just last autumn there was someone who started a thread in the spoilers section saying that he was confused because he started reading the in-game books, read that the Tribunal murdered Nerevar and stole the Heart's power, and that Voryn Dagoth initially wanted Kagrenac's tools destroyed.
His post more or less said, "I don't understand this. I thought I was working for the good guys. But now this information is making the Tribunal gods look bad and Dagoth Ur look good. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Who is the good guy here?"
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Post by Daedric Cat on Mar 29, 2015 11:08:14 GMT -6
LOL, making them think.
How many of them actually bother reading the books? The ones that Cosades has you read?
It's also interesting that Voryn Dagoth didn't trust Dumac and warned Nerevar about the Dwemer. And that Voryn was the one who was right about what happened to the Dwemer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 12:05:24 GMT -6
It's like they expect Azura to babysit the Dunmer or something. Which is completely against the nature of the Daedra or the Dunmer.
I've noticed the nature of the Daedra in Oblivion, where you can collect enchanted Daedric weapons that are named according to sin. That and the other bits and scraps of lore we find, to me the Daedra only mirror the darker or more earthier nature of mortals. The serve in that aspect. It's like what Prince Jareth in Labyrinth tells the girl, you wanted someone for you to cower before and to blame, that's what I am. It's my nature. OMG YOU GET IT. I have often also thought this was so, and that the Nine are revered because they represent either more Happy Sunshine Sparkle Fun aspects of humanity or the more civilized aspects. The Daedra are the shadow side of human (and mer, and beast folk) nature. I've read just enough Jung to be dangerous, but the Daedra really do strike me as Jungian: all of them have a lighter or more positive side, and a shadow or darker side. No one, man or mer (or beast folk) likes to see their shadow side. so it's easier to say "Daedra are bad, Mmm'kay?' than it is to recognize those aspects in one's self. Let me use Dagon as an example. Destruction takes many lives. But without the principle of Destruction, there would be no energy, no heat, no light, no change. everything would exist, frozen, dark, in eternal stasis. No fire to cook food, or illuminate one's way. Or Boethiah. 'Overthrow of lawful authority.' Lawful =/= good, and an evil despotic tyrant can be every bit as lawful as a just, forthright, and kind ruler. Or Sheo. People are afraid of madness, and the mad. Madness is the body's way of protecting the spirit from destruction. That's why it's a bitter mercy. I have friends and a mother who have mental illnesses to varying degrees, and I might possibly have the more depressive bipolar, so I can sort of speak from experience on this. But also, I think that anyone who is even a little creative has to be a little mad, at least for a moment. How else can you believe for a moment in something that doesn't exist yet long enough to make it reality? I used to have a very good friend in the TES fandom whose (now ex) husband was so hidebound by rules of reality that it was amazing he was a gamer at all, and the only work of fiction he'd ever been able to read was the Count of Monte Cristo, because nothing else was realistic enough for him. Dull! him, not the book. Make no mistake: they still play by their own rules, and mortals can't always know their motivations or reasons. What can seem cruel or even evil to a mortal might be for the greater good of existence as a whole. Or not.
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Post by Daedric Cat on Mar 29, 2015 12:37:26 GMT -6
It's very Jungian. Also, a lot of influence from Joseph Campbell, so much so that a book called the "Monomyth" is part of the in-game books.
Another thing they don't realize is that the style of RP and world building is from what I call the golden days of RPG, when Dungeons and Dragons was really big and TSR, Tactical Strategic Review, put out a magazine called Dragon, which had many articles of how the game was supposed to be player centric. And world building was complex and many layered. It wasn't about tropes and definitions like "OMG original character." "Mary Sue." There wasn't any of that prissy need to classify and cubbyhole every little aspect. No prudish need to diminish the player character and the PC's POV according to the individual.
The Dragon Lance writers were often asked why some of their stories conflicted with each other. They answered that their stories are like the mythologies and legends that we do have, which has many versions, many points of view, many seeming conflicts, yet still have the wonder and magic.
TES Lore is like that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:06:23 GMT -6
It's very Jungian. Also, a lot of influence from Joseph Campbell, so much so that a book called the "Monomyth" is part of the in-game books.
Another thing they don't realize is that the style of RP and world building is from what I call the golden days of RPG, when Dungeons and Dragons was really big and TSR, Tactical Strategic Review, put out a magazine called Dragon, which had many articles of how the game was supposed to be player centric. And world building was complex and many layered. It wasn't about tropes and definitions like "OMG original character." "Mary Sue." There wasn't any of that prissy need to classify and cubbyhole every little aspect. No prudish need to diminish the player character and the PC's POV according to the individual.
The Dragon Lance writers were often asked why some of their stories conflicted with each other. They answered that their stories are like the mythologies and legends that we do have, which has many versions, many points of view, many seeming conflicts, yet still have the wonder and magic.
TES Lore is like that. Yes, Joseph Campbell. I was trying to recall the name. These things resonate with people, as far back as the Epic of Gilgamesh (and scholars probably would have argued over exactly what was the lore of the friendship with Enkidu and Gilgamesh. Human nature never changes.). You're preaching to the choir on Dungeons and Dragons and Dragon Magazine ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) my first encounter with fantasy games was a Basic Edition D and D game (the old Red box, no less) which I joined as a 'Well, what the hell. Why not?' sort of thing. I loved it, and it set the stage. this was back in the days when story meant something, not just 'ooh, shiny." Back in my day, we mapped out dungeons by hand and we liked it! *waves cane at kids on her lawn* I digress. But if you want a prime example of how games and gaming have changed, Might and Magic came out in 1986-1987. It had pretty crappy graphics (though decent for the day) and loads of puzzles, including a dungeon that was basically a big sudoku puzzle. That game made you think, take notes, and pay attention. Last April or March, MMX came out. Pretty, shiny, fun... and all the brains of week old guar dung. Back on topic, I really dislike the rigid adherence to "You must not include any non-lore characters. Even the existence of an original character means self-insertion at best. So. What. There's good well done self-insert characters (there's a rather old school 80s bodice ripper style romance novel by Bertrice Small , Skye O'Malley. It's very non-PC by today's standards.) The heroine and the author look suspiciously alike. So what! Skye is a great character... And there's bad ones. (Twilight and 50 Shades, I'm looking at YOU). Some TES fans invest too much in the characters, to the point where you'd think that the world only had a few thousand people or so.
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Post by Daedric Cat on Mar 29, 2015 13:26:24 GMT -6
I absolutely loathe that phrase "self-insert." It sounds like little old church ladies talking about sex and such and how horrible and dirty it is, but privately jealous that they don't have the gumption to be so bold themselves.
No one here is the old fogey chasing the kids off the lawn. It's these lordinators who hate seeing anyone having fun with original characters- in fanfic it's usually younger kids, those who aren't so concerned with producing Shakespearean literature who make the characters they hate so much. The Lordinators are the ones who try to chase anyone who wants to talk about their headcanon or their own characters off the public sites like Tumblr. They are the bitter shriveled old farts who can't stand anyone having any fun in an arena they want to control.
So what if a lot of these "Original characters" in fanfic or in the game are bad? If someone is having fun with them, why do these Lordinators care? No one is requiring them to read posts or read stories or someone's headcanon.
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